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The Three Pillars

Thank you for participating in the Dialogue on Foreign Policy. The interactive web site is now closed. The Minister's report will appear on this web site once it is released.

This Forum is bilingual, and participants post messages in their language of choice.

Beyond policies and ideals

Contributor: banquosghost

Date: 2003-02-28 12:46:50


http://www.orwelltoday.com/doublethink.shtml describes "doublethink" this way.


"Doublethink lies at the very heart of Ingsoc, since the essential act of the Party is to use conscious deception while retaining the firmness of purpose that goes with complete honesty. To tell deliberate lies while genuinely believing them and to forget any fact that has become inconvenient, and then, when it becomes necessary again, to draw it back from oblivion for just so long as it is needed, to deny the existence of objective reality and all the while to take account of the reality which one denies - all this is indispensably necessary. Even in using the word doublethink it is necessary to exercise doublethink. For by using the word one admits that one is tampering with reality; by a fresh act of doublethink one erases this knowledge; and so on indefinitely, with the lie always one leap ahead of the truth. Ultimately it is by means of doublethink that the Party has been able - and may, for all we know, continue to be able for thousands of years - to arrest the course of history."

Doesn't sound so desireable that way although it does sound like what we've got happening.


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Beyond policies and ideals

Contributor: Vox

Date: 2003-03-02 19:55:45


You're right, it isn't desirable but it isn't truly "doublethink" either. It seems to me to be self-delusion by selfish but twisted people. The webpage that you cite appears to be merely one interpretation of how a person might use "doublethink". I'll try to provide some additional information on "doublethink" for consideration:

- "doublethink" is a mental tool that is useful when people don't have all the facts or complete understanding that would enable a clear answer

- in life, for a thoughtful person, it is a not uncommon to feel a lack of sufficient facts and understanding when confronted with difficult decisions

- the ability to "doublethink" allows one to function effectively when one does not have the luxury to procrastinate

- it also allows one to be faithful to more than one belief and act effectively for all of them if one should hold them all to be relevant and meaningful

So, to correct your misunderstanding (and to augment the web-author's "singlethink" polemic on "doublethink"), "doublethink" is merely a mental capacity that can be learned by anyone. IME, some people will find it more difficult to master "doublethink" than others. To best develop this ability, one has to start by shedding all of one's prejudices and mental blocks. In a sense, one has to start with a clean slate; something that is best done with either an enlightened mind or with the benefit of responsible mentoring.

Just like the ideas condemned on the webpage you cite, I also know of people who use "doublethink" to justify their twisted indulgences. In all of those cases, those people appear not to have truly shed their prejudices and mental blocks but rather, used "doublethink" as a convenient way to justify their prejudices to their conscience. Unfortunately, whether you or I choose to understand "doublethink" and use it for betterment, such people will still exist. I agree with you, it can be frightening because they may really think they are conscionable. Such people may effectively lack a social conscience.

People of position are invariably able to "doublethink" because so much is demanded of them but sometimes it also takes a more enlightened mind to tell when a person of responsibility is using "doublethink" for noble versus selfish reasons, consciously or unconsciously.

Remember that mental capacity can be used towards "good" or "bad" ends. There are some very intelligent but twisted individuals and systems the coexist in this world. I suspect they will always exist. Some are consciously so while others are unconsciously so. If one wishes to turn away from a more enlightened way of being open to different ideas and views, one does it at one's own peril and to one's own disadvantage. Ignorance may be bliss but it is also self-limiting. Think of "doublethink" as being hand-in-hand with what Adam received when he bit into the forbidden fruit. It's neither inherently "good" or "evil".



Vox Canadiana

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Beyond policies and ideals

Contributor: Vox

Date: 2003-03-02 22:43:33


"Doublethink" is often cited as the diabolical method behind misinformation. That is essentially the Orwellian view on "doublethink" (1984).

If you would also consider the F. Scott Fitzgerald (earlier) version you will notice that the arguments for and against "doublethink" itself constitute a "doublethink".

Doublethink is really just a more enlightened way of thinking through difficult situations. It can be abused as well as honoured. I would suspect many people of authority practise doublethink whether they are aware of it or not. It is one of the challenges of leadership.


Vox Canadiana

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Beyond policies and ideals

Contributor: banquosghost

Date: 2003-03-05 17:38:02


Holding 2 conflicting ideas in mind simultaneously is one thing, crafting a foreign policy that implements both of those conflicting ideas is quite another.

Usually that's called being "two faced". It's rather looked down upon.

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Beyond policies and ideals

Contributor: Vox

Date: 2003-03-05 23:19:24


On the contrary, I believe you may have missed a point regarding "doublethink".

"Holding 2 conflicting ideas in mind simultaneously is one thing, crafting a foreign policy that implements both of those conflicting ideas..." is in fact a valid demonstration of doublethink.

So, take for instance, the case where current US policy would dictate that possession of WMD is a threat to world security but at the same time would allow the US to continue to possess WMD. I gather this is an effective example of what you would call "two faced".

If you agree then I would suggest to you that your contention is mistaken in this case.

The reason is, although the ideas are conflicting on their own, they are perfectly congruous when taken on a higher plane of understanding (enlightened). If we view world disarmament as an ultimate goal then WMD development and possession should be halted in order for the nations who currently have them to reach "equilibrium". Once this equilibrium can be verified to the satisfaction of all, stockpiles of WMD can then be reduced multilaterally. The problem with disarmament is to verify that no one is cheating. When "rogue nations" acquire WMD and do not play by these rules we end up with chaos where the existing abiding nations who have WMD feel they must increase or maintain WMD capability to stay ahead of the rogue states. That is what happened during the cold war. When the USSR capitulated, the US did in fact begin to disarm along with the USSR.

So, in an honourable case, the perception of doublthink does not mean the ideas involved are truly conflicting. A common problem is that many people do not understand the higher order of intentions or perhaps, to suit their selfish motive(s), these people choose to call the case, "two faced", so as to injure the party that is grappling with the complex issues.

Of course, there are also instances when people unscrupulously use doublethink to justify or mask their ulterior motives. Orwell did a good job of demonstrating that. Those examples support your point.



Vox Canadiana

P.S. Actually, on the subject of WMD proliferation, if you would study contemporary French history you will find plenty of evidence that post-WWII de Gaulle pressed the US to give it WMD technology and that it pursued WMD research and development even though they were repeatedly requested not to. I should add that the Germans of that period were particularly annoyed by the French action. You may also recall that in 1985, so as to conduct nuclear tests, the French navy went so far as to blow up the Greenpeace flagship, The Rainbow Warrior, while it was moored in Auckland, killing one person. I do not believe France ever made amends for that crime. To this day, France maintains a credible WMD arsenal, even though its rationale of deterring Soviet aggression is arguably obsolete. Would you then also call France "two-faced"?

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Beyond policies and ideals

Contributor: banquosghost

Date: 2003-03-06 12:45:02


Yup.

I'd call almost all of the major participants in this current fiasco two-faced.

Wait, let me think...no, I'd call every single one of them two-faced. If not three-faced.

What we have here is rampaging self-interest from all sides. It's probably becoming more dangerous to world stability than anything since the Cuban missile crisis and it may be even more dangerous than that was. Fun, huh?

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