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Security

Thank you for participating in the Dialogue on Foreign Policy. The interactive web site is now closed. The Minister's report will appear on this web site once it is released.

This Forum is bilingual, and participants post messages in their language of choice.

Cellucci Speech

Contributor: RCGGILLIS

Date: 2003-04-07 12:26:47


fatmomma,

Are you suggesting that Canada (and the West in general) take a more isolationists view of the world? that unless something directly effects our own self-interest that we should stay out? If Saddam was isolated, that would ensure our own safety, but would we not be condemning the people if Iraqi to a life of semi-hell? In 1988 we saw Saddam order the slaughter of over 100,000 Kurds. In 1991, after the Gulf War ended, Saddam had the rebels in the North and the South killed. In 1996 we saw his two son-in-laws killed by his own orders. We now have evidence of mass murders at a warehouse complex outside Basra. The government of Saddam can definitely not been see as the most human rights friendly regime. Yet you are right, there has yet to be a proven link to terrorist activities that would directly threaten the security of the West. So it pure self-interest the only motivation you see for Canada's foreign policy?

You suggest the war is illegal because Saddam has not violated the borders of another nation in 12 years. Yet what about the humanitarian reasons that the UN itself says can be used for the justification of conflict? I have cited two clear examples of human rights violations of above and evidence of a third. Do these not count towards making the case of humanitarian intervention?

You suggest that the US did not make the case that there were WMD in Iraq. Yet why did Russia, France and Germany suggest that the UN inspectors were making progress in the disarmament of Iraq and that they required more time to finish the job? Hans Blix himself felt they were making progress, so would it not follow that these nations as well as the head of the inspection team felt there were indeed some grounds to continue the search for WMD? The US claims thus can hardly be considered or seen to be fraudulent in this light.

I think we as a nation can decide what conflicts to support and the removing a police state regime such as Saddam's is one conflict we should be supporting. Mr. Cellucci is correct in telling us that his nation is disappointed that Canada is not doing so.

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Cellucci Speech

Contributor: codc01

Date: 2003-04-08 14:49:56


"Are you suggesting that Canada (and the West in general) take a more isolationists view of the world? "

Superpowers should do so... yes, because most people of the world eye with suspicion anything that those superpowers do...

I'm mostly repeating myself (I've written about this already)... Why didn't any of the western powers at least stop delivering weapons to Saddam's regime in 1988?? just stopping exporting weapons could still be considered isolationism, since its not affecting anything outside their own countries.

Canada promotes intervention in the case of Genocide - "International Commission on Intervention and State Sovereignty" http://web.gc.cuny.edu/icissresearch/main.htm - when this Genocide occurs, and falls under the Commission's report, recent events in Iraq could not justify invading Iraq... On the other hand, we could have intervened in Rwanda at the time of the genocide...


p.s : I really did not know that they were 100 000 kurds which were killed by the regime? Can you give me a non-biased hyperlink? Were these civilians, military? Can you give me the political context? Was it a civil war?

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Cellucci Speech

Contributor: RCGGILLIS

Date: 2003-04-08 16:10:19


Regarding the URL request, it is hard not to find a non-biased link. For example, www.jewishagency-ed.org/actual/iraq/4.html, says between 100,000 and 300,000 deaths. Globalsecurity.org states that between 50,000-100,000 Kurds were killed between February and September 1988 (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/iraq/1corps.htm).

The White House gives the same number as Globalsecurity. This leaves out the numbers that fled into Turkey or 'disappeared' as some sources claim.

I found that when Professor Ramesh Thakur gave a lecture in Waterloo on the International Commission on State Sovereignty (he was a member of that group and also a Vice rector at the United Nations University), entitle, the Responsibility to Protect, that he provided more flexibility then you.

For the actual report, see http://www.dfait-maeci.gc.ca/iciss-ciise/menu-en.asp. It also has the background research.

Here is part of the report

4.19 In the Commission's view, military intervention for human protection purposes is justified in two broad sets of circumstances, namely in order to halt or avert:

1. large scale loss of life, actual or apprehended, with genocide intent or not, which is the product either of deliberate state action, or state neglect or inability to act, or a failed state situation; or

2.large scale "ethnic cleansing," actual or apprehended, whether carried out by killing, forced expulsion, acts of terror or rape.


One such quote that I recall was "by not taking action, we are more complicit than those who committed the actions themselves." Referring to the genocide of the Tutsi's in 1994. Prof. Thakur reminded several of us in the room that we we must remember that political decisions are still going to be made and thus a "double standard is unavoidable" - as noted by the UN (and Canada's) reaction to Somalia, Rwanda, and Kosovo.

While I am sure he would have supported the UN in this matter, I feel that some of the arguments do carry over. When we see the slow death of the Iraqi people due to the actions of the government, when we see the Kurds in the north living under the threat of their own government, when Saddam has proven he is willing to use WMD against his own people, when we see that the borders of neighbours will be violated given the chance, I am not sure how much longer we as a nation should let one person push the us to the very edge of what is acceptable international behaviour.

With a commitment to rebuild a shattered nation (I wish the Afghani people had the same level of public support as the Iraqi people), I think this war can be justified. Even though several of the people in the academic world that have given me several of my arguments I know would disagree me.

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Cellucci Speech

Contributor: codc01

Date: 2003-04-09 17:05:29


Thanks for the link, i only checked the first one, and compared with other articles... In all cases, the Kurds have been exploited by everyone since the beginning - its very sad.

http://www.monde-diplomatique.fr/cahier/irak/chrono-kurde

The numbers of deaths 50 000-100 000 deaths, seem from all the sources more to come exactly from the 1988 era, where there were opposing factions (UPK, PDK and Iraq)... The issue seems complex, and this article convinced me that you are right :
http://www.monde-diplomatique.fr/1998/03/NEZAN/10174

A reason more why strong condemnation should have been done at that time, I'm sure that if there would have been a strong condamnation at that time, Saddam's regime would have stopped ...

But i have the same vision as the academics, you simply can't say 15 years later, that now justice will be done...

The definition of "large scale loss of life, actual or apprehend" is quite vague ...

Thanks again for the info!!

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